Cross & Gavel Audio

The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development. My guests today are Joe Ruta and Stephen Lyon. Joe is a Partner of Ruta, Soulios, & Stratis LLP. He is outside general counsel to over 30 corporations ranging from startups to public companies as well as not-for-profits. For more. Stephen is a deputy assistant public defender working in Connecticut. For more. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.

The recent publication of Melissa Moschella’s Ethics, Politics, and Natural Law has renewed interest in the application of natural law to human flourishing. A topic that has undergone a resurgence among not only Catholics, but also Protestants with seminal publications from those like David VanDrunen, Micah Watson, and Andrew T. Walker. Seeing students engaging in this tradition has been rewarding and today I speak to one of those students, Josiah Wolfe, and his article in the Campbell Law Observer entitled, Natural Law and Its Discontents. We talk about the early stages of his interest in the topic, whether he’s seeing the natural law in his assignment, how he approaches Aquinas and law, the relationship between legislation and divine ordinance, and much more. Josiah is a second-year law student at Campbell University School of Law and is a Staff Writer for the Campbell Law Observer. He grew up in North Carolina and graduated summa cum laude from Charter Oak College with a B.S. in Business Administration. He

A popular refrain from both the left and the right in American society is one concerning the importance of liberty for the flourishment of their respective communities. But what does true freedom look like and, perhaps more importantly, how does one come to attain it and then keep it in a world like our own. This week, I am joined by Brad Littlejohn to talk about his new book, Called to Freedom: Retrieving Christian Liberty in an Age of License. In our conversation, we discuss the journey of writing this book, the nature and meaning of liberty in all of its areas, role of obligation and virtue, the influence of modern technology on freedom, and more. Brad is the Director of Programs and Education at American Compass and president emeritus at Davenant Institute. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

The John Witte, Jr. Lecture Series on Christianity & Law is back! A new venture from Christian Legal Society aimed at advancing the conversation surrounding the integration of Christianity & law. In our second lecture inspired by the American 19th century painters, we go international and ask what contributions Christianity made to advancing human rights. Our keynote is Kristina Arriaga, who digs deep into her Cuban heritage to bring us a fascinating lecture on the Christian jurists who paved the way for our modern rights framework. She was joined by Justice Jamie R. Grosshans (Florida Supreme Court) for a period of Q&A after the lecture.  For more on Kristina's work, see here. If you would like to hear the introductions by Anton Sorkin and John Witte, Jr., and the Q&A with Justice Jamies R. Grosshans, check out the full version here. SPONSOR: The Witte Lectures are sponsored by TRINITY LAW SCHOOL. SOUND: Special thanks to Josh Deng for his technical support in getting this audio ready.  MUSI

Today, a sharply divided Supreme Court reinstated a lower-court order for the Trump administration to release frozen foreign aid. In this episode, I talk with Matthew Soerens of World Relief about some of the recent executive orders and how marginalized voices can help save the American church. Matt began his World Relief journey in 2005 as an intern in Nicaragua. Since then he served as a Department of Justice-accredited legal counselor in Chicagoland before assuming the role of U.S. Director of Church Mobilization and Advocacy. He is the co-author of three books including  Welcoming the Stranger (InterVarsity Press, 2018) and Inalienable (InterVarsity Press, 2022). He is a graduate of Wheaton College, where he has also served as a guest faculty member in the Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership program, and earned a master’s degree from DePaul University’s School of Public Service.  Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento

Today we delve into the world of Title VII by looking at the pending case in Carter v. Transp. Workers Union of Am. Local 556. The focus of our discussion will be on the paper from Blaine Hutchison in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, entitled Title VII’s Religious Liberty Rules in Carter (here). Blaine is joined by one of the premier experts in the field of employment law and also my old professor, Bruce Cameron. As part of this conversation, we lay out some history for Religious Accommodation claims, the importance of protecting the conscience, the freewheelin’ accommodation claim (for more, see this), the background in Carter, and more. Professor Bruce Cameron (profile) teaches employment discrimination law at Regent University School of Law and has been litigating religious accommodation cases for the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation for four decades. Blaine Hutchinson (profile) is a staff attorney with the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation. Cross & Gavel is a produc

Many people hate the tax system. It is perhaps the one universal solvent that can bring people together. In this episode, I discuss the income tax system and whether it can actually produce a more equitable society. My guest is Andrew Hayashi, whose paper we discuss is entitled Christianity and the Liberal(ish) Income Tax and was printed in the Notre Dame Journal of Law, Ethics, & Public Policy. We discuss some basics of income tax, the Christian critics of liberalism, whether the tax system is in fact liberal, what it can do to achieve the common good, and must more. Andrew is an expert in tax law, tax policy and behavioral law and economics. He joined the University of Virginia School of Law's faculty in July 2013. He is a McDonald Distinguished Fellow at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University. Prior to joining the Law School, he was the Nourallah Elghanayan Research Fellow at the Furman Center for Real Estate and Urban Policy at New York University, where his research focused

It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together. Our first episode was with Ruth Haley Barton on Establishing Rhythms & Abiding in God (here). Our second was with Dr. Barbara L. Peacock on developing spiritual disciplines for soul care (here). On this episode, we are joined by Starr Tomczak to discuss her brand new book called Living Well: Inspired by the Story behind the Bible. Starr not only went to law school and had a succesful law practice as a corporate lawyer, but she also felt the calling to enter seminary and eventually write this book. She has a BA from C

Many people use the language of "calling" without considering the scope and duration of that word and what it really means to align one’s gifts with community need. In this episode, I get to explore some of these issues with Steven Zhou, a postdoc researcher on the meaning of calling and the author of a Christianity Today piece entitled Calling Is More Than Your Job. Steven and I delve deep into the sociological understanding of calling, what it means to align skills with need, to what extent pride and perserverance play a role in self-understanding, and more. At the heart of our conversation is this academic study. Steven completed his Ph.D. in Industrial & Organizational Psychology from George Mason University, studying under Dr. Stephen Zaccaro and Dr. Philseok Lee. He previously received a B.A. in Industrial & Organizational Psychology and M.A. in Religion from Pepperdine University. He also has four years of full-time applied work experience in human resources, data analytics, and non-profit mana

Happy New Years!  To start off the year right, I wanted to go back to basics: faith through lawyering. My guest is Randy Lee, a veteran in the field, writing on the topic of the Christian lawyer for over three decades. His insights can be found within a body of work (see links here), but the paper we mostly focused on (here) was a book review he did on Joseph G. Allegretti's The Lawyer's Calling: Christian Faith and Legal Practice. Randy teaches constitutional law, professional responsibility, torts and various writing and advocacy courses. Professor Lee has taught previously at the Villanova and University of Pittsburgh Law Schools and in the Harvard University Summer Program.  NOTE: This episode pairs well with the one featuring Jeff Ventrella on his experiences as a man of faith in big law (here). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In the last few weeks, there has been two excellent podcasts that showcase the depths of what legal learning could provide. In the first, a conversation (here) about the history and framework for the federal constitution, taught largely from an incredible five volume work entitled The Founders’ Constitution. The second comes from our friends at the Mattone Center for Law and Religion (here), featuring two Fordham law professors who have launched a forum for law students looking to discuss C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. Fortuitous as it is, we have supplemented on this Christmas Day with a third dimension of legal education, which is the question of access to justice and the role of lawyers in improving the lives of their neighbors. My guest is Kevin T. Frazier, who has written an excellent, short piece for the Federalist Society (here) entitled Artificial Intelligence Can Improve Access to Justice, But the Legal Profession Has a Role to Play. Kevin and I talk about a number of things, including what access to

In this special end of the semester episode, I get to talk to two amazing black Christian women about their experiences in law school. And not just in law school, but also the entire process surrounding getting in and getting out. The book at the heart of this discussion is from Jeanelle Angus entitled Unveiling Strength and Faith: The Diary of a Black Christian Female Law Student. As part of this conversation, we talk about the path of “most” resistance in getting to law school, what it was like realizing their minority status once there, the pressure of having to represent for their communities, various ways they overcame struggles, and much more. My first guest is Jeanelle C. Angus, a law student at the University of New Hampshire Franklin Pierce School of Law, graduating in May 2025. My second guest is attorney Lakuita Bittle, who attended the UDC David A. Clarke School of Law in Washington, D.C. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with musi

This week, we continue our conversation on mental health and the various reasons why law students don’t get the help they need. My guest is Amy Levin—someone who not only understands the legal profession but has also spent much time studying mental health. Amy has written a new paper entitled The Kids Aren’t Alright, in which she discusses the decline in law student mental health and encourages law schools to take steps to normalize mental well-being and to support students in seeking help. In our discussion, we focus on common stressors, which students struggle the most, why other professions seem to be doing better, and how law students can improve their own mental health. Amy is a Clinical Professor of Law at LMU Loyola Law School, Los Angeles. She graduated from the UCLA School of Law, Program in Public Interest Law and Policy, and the Department of Social Welfare, where she earned a JD/MSW. Amy also worked for ten years at Arnold & Porter as a litigation attorney and clerked for the Honorable Richard

It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together. Our first episode was with Ruth Haley Barton on Establishing Rhythms & Abiding in God (here). This week, we are joined by Dr. Barbara L. Peacock to talk about spiritual disciplines as soul care. Dr. Peacock is the author of the award-winning book Soul Care in African American Practice (book + workbook). Her newest book is Spiritual Practices for Soul Care 40 Ways to Deepen your Faith (buy). She is passionate about the disciplines of prayer, spiritual direction (soul care), lectio, and visio divina. In 2013 she founde

This week, I talk to Lael Weinberger about the doctrine of church autonomy—what it is and, more importantly, where it came from. Lael has written an excellent paper on the origins of church autonomy (here), as well as put to practice his musings in a recent amicus brief he filed in the D.C. Circuit in the case of O’Connell v. United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (here). After we spent some time digging into Lael’s past, we got to business discussing his paper and brief. Some of the topics we discussed included the definition and scope of church autonomy, the jurisdictional nature of this topic as it relates to the state and the church, the history of its development in the 19th century, and much more. Lael Weinberger is an attorney and legal scholar. He currently works of Gibson Dunn in Washington, D.C. (bio), and serves as a nonresident fellow at Stanford Law (bio). In the past, he clerked for Justice Neil Gorsuch on the United States Supreme Court, Judge Frank Easterbrook on the Seventh Circuit Cour

This week, we are joined once more by our friend and comparative constitutional law expert from the mean streets of Padua—Andrea Pin. We discuss his brand new book from Brill entitled, Religious Freedom without the Rule of Law: The Constitutional Odysseys of Afghanistan, Egypt, and Iraq and the Fate of the Middle East (here). Whereby last time we spoke about the development of religious freedom jurisprudence in Europe (listen here), this time we venture into the Islamic world by considering the rule of law and its implications in Afghanistan, Egypt, and Iraq. I ask him about the meaning of “rule of law” and whether it remains a purely Western convention. I ask about the role of community life in his focused regions as it relates to the ways they negotiate legal disputes and tribal tensions. I ask about the role of religious conversion and what happens after. And much more. Andrea Pin is the Associate Professor of Comparative Public Law at the University of Padova Law School and a senior fellow in the Center f

This week, we have a special guest from the University of Florida Levin College of Law—Christopher D. Hampson. Our topic is a good one: the cancellation of debt. To that end, Chris and I discussed his forthcoming article tentatively entitled Law and the Jubilee Tradition. Some of the things we spoke about was the jubilee tradition in the Old Testament text, the many ways that tradition connects with the history of American society, his approach based on a Rawlsian ideal of practical reason, principle of equality undergirding his project, and more. Chris is a scholar of bankruptcy, insolvency, and the ethics of debt. His research focuses on how legal institutions can best serve our shared values during times of financial distress. Chris served as a law clerk for Judge Richard A. Posner on the Seventh Circuit in Chicago and practiced law at a number of promient law firms in Miami and Boston. Full bio and CV here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng

This week, we have a special episode with a return guest of mine—Nicholas Aroney, who recently delivered the Sir John Graham Lecture in New Zealand. You can listen to that here or read it here. Nick and I talk about this lecture, entitled The Compass of Character, delving into questions relating to the definition of good character, the role that catastrophes play in bringing out an individual's true self, the limits of law and education for the inculcation of good character, and the role of religion in helping bridge the gap. Nicholas Aroney is Professor of Constitutional Law at The University of Queensland, Director (Public Law) of the Centre for Public, International and Comparative Law and a Senior Fellow of the Centre for Law and Religion at Emory University. As mentioned in our conversation, he has also edited an impressive volume entitled, Christianity and Constitutionalism—this is well worth the money! Faculty bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced b

In this episode, I talk about a new book that models the ten habits that any peacemaker should adopt. The author is Steven T. Collis and the book is Ten Habits of a Peacemaker. For those wondering how this book compares to the work of Ken Sande’s The Peacemaker, the two are excellent companions. While Ken’s is more theological (LISTEN), Steven’s project looks at the process and psychological challenges of creating a space for constructive dialogue and common life. To that end, him and I spoke about the importance of habit formation, the challenges of navigating perception, the psychology underlying group-think, the various steps that an individual can take to develop the heart of a peacemaker, and much more. Steven researches and teaches on religion law, productive discourse, and other First Amendment topics at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law. He is the founding faculty director of the Bech-Loughlin First Amendment Center and its Law & Religion Clinic. Before joining Texas Law, he was a Re

This week, I discuss a recent piece (here) in Touchstone Magazine with Adam J. MacLeod entitled “How Law Lost Its Way: An Abandoned Ruling Principle & How to Get It Back.” In it, Adam discusses the role of practical reason in the development of law and the change that took place after the Enlightenment toward a positivistic conception of law rooted in power and force. We discuss his move to Texas, the meaning of the rule of law and how it was developed throughout history, the role of deliberation in the legal process, how the law was lost through power jurisprudence, and much more. Adam is Professor of Law at St. Mary’s University (profile) and a Senior Research Fellow of the Center for Religion, Culture and Democracy (for more). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.